The prime minister is a candidate again. And it shows. He speaks fluidly, dodges jabs, and stands his ground with a smile. Pedro Sánchez, who seemed somewhat weakened after his brother’s conviction and the Ceuta migrant crisis, appears to have been energized by the general election of November 29, which will be his sixth. “These elections can be summed up in a very simple idea: either the past moves forward, or Spain moves forward,” he says.
It is Friday morning and Sánchez, 54, meets EL PAÍS at the historic headquarters of the Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE) on Ferraz street in Madrid. In the room where the interview takes place, there is a large red slogan that reads: “La fuerza de la gente” (The strength of the people). When Sánchez is asked about his biggest mistake in eight years of government, he does not hesitate. “Ábalos’s corruption. For the double error of not having seen it and, of course, the fact that it happened,” he replies, alluding to a corruption scandal involving Covid facemask procurement contracts.
Question. Your term is ending amid clear social discontent on the streets. There is a general strike that’s been called and an encampment at Puerta del Sol. After eight years in power, what responsibility does the government bear for this?
Answer. Spain again leads job creation within the European Union. And for the fifth consecutive year it tops growth among the main OECD economies. But there is evident discontent over how the benefits of economic growth are being distributed and, especially, over access to housing, which is a problem across Europe. Faced with this situation, if Parliament lacks the means to effectively respond to citizens’ principal concern, the ballot box must be opened to secure a much broader, progressive majority and go further on housing policy.
Q. Does that mean you support the general strike?
A. I respect the constitutional right to strike. In recent years we have also seen how the right and the far right have exercised their legitimate right to demonstrate, although I regret that on many occasions those demonstrations have degenerated into harassment and insults directed at the PSOE.
Q. But do you support the strike? Isn’t it against the government?
A. I don’t believe it is a general strike against the government so much as a call for all competent administrations — not just the Spanish government — to put forward solutions to the country’s main concern and source of inequality, which is precisely access to housing. It is a sign that Spanish society, faced with the reactionary wave, can mobilize around causes linked to social justice.
Q. The Bank of Spain estimates 700,000 homes are needed. After eight years, isn’t it a failure that they haven’t been built?
A. In recent years we have built one million homes. But we also need regulation. In the period before the financial crisis, four and a half million homes were built, but very few were subsidized homes. Supply increased, but prices rose exponentially, making them unaffordable. That is why the key is not only to build more, but for all administrations to commit to building affordable social housing and, if possible, ensure it isn’t sold to vulture funds. If we intervened in the energy market and it proved beneficial, why wouldn’t we also regulate the housing market? For that we need a broader progressive majority.
Q. But you understand why people are asking how come you didn’t do this earlier?
A. We did take action. We multiplied the housing policy budget by eight, we passed the first national law on the matter, one million homes have been built under my government, 13% of them social housing. What’s the problem? The measures in our housing decree have been presented in Parliament more than four times and have always failed because of the conservative majority of the People’s Party (PP), [the far-right party] Vox and [the Catalan regional party] Junts. The other problem is that [in the regions of Spain] where the PP and Vox are in power, they refuse to apply the national housing law. In places where it has been implemented, as in Barcelona, rental prices have fallen by 5%, while in Madrid they keep rising.
Q. Aside from the housing problem, Spain is suffering from very high inflation of 4.9%. Will that harm you at the ballot box?
A. A large percentage of that inflation, if not all of it, is related to the war in Iran, which we opposed from the start. It has cost Europe more than €100 billion. In Spain we have mobilized €12 billion through the end of the year as a social shield. But we need a parliamentary majority to ensure it continues while the war lasts… Of course, the cheapest measure would be for this war to end.
Q. Will the minimum wage be raised before the elections?
A. Of course, we will raise the statutory minimum wage, as we have pledged to do. Employers and unions must negotiate increases in average wages. Business must show empathy toward the demand to raise average pay to cope with inflation.
Q. During the pre-campaign a controversy broke out over the sustainability of pensions. Do you have any reform in mind if you win the elections?
A. We must convey a message of calm. We have a healthy public pension system, with solid accounts and corrective factors should spending deviate. Moreover, both the rise in the statutory minimum wage and in average pay — 23% during my term — and the granting of legal status to hundreds of thousands of migrants, allowing them to contribute to the Social Security system, have strengthened our public system. If [PP leader Alberto Núñez] Feijóo and Vox are concerned about the sustainability of those pensions, they should tell employers to agree with unions on larger pay increases for the working middle class.
Q. Feijóo has also proposed reforms to the euthanasia law and to abortion rules for 16- and 17-year-olds. Are you worried about substantive changes?
A. Vox supplies the ideas and the PP supplies the ambition for power. This week they wouldn’t even take a photo with the Argentine president, Javier Milei [who visited Spain], out of sheer shame, but both share the same handbook of budget cuts and chainsaws to the system. In a democracy, alternation is positive. But a PP government partnered with Vox is not alternation — it is a true regression. It would mean rolling back 40 or 50 years overnight in debates like abortion or the right to die with dignity. And in the cultural field, in [the regional government of] Castilla y León they have just announced the withdrawal of subsidies to films they deem ideologically driven. Who decides what is ideological? They do. That means censorship, and that is what was experienced in Spain under the [Franco] dictatorship. The experience of reactionary regional governments is a warning about the risks of a backward slide.
Q. Why did you call a snap election at a time when polls are not favorable to you?
A. We’ll talk about the polls later. These elections can be summed up in a very simple idea: either the past moves forward, or Spain moves forward. And I believe we will have a sufficient majority to allow Spain to continue advancing for another four years.
Q. Those polls give the right up to a 15-point lead. Doesn’t the division among left-wing parties work against you?
A. I have led the PSOE since 2014. Many of those now predicting a PP–Vox victory were the same people who said [the left-wing party] Podemos would overtake the PSOE. They were the ones who said I would lose in 2019 and again in 2023. I respect all polls, but I assure you that on November 29 there will be a much broader progressive parliamentary majority, for the simple reason that citizens will mobilize to keep Spain moving forward. What is remarkable is not that the far right is making inroads — they are doing so worldwide. What is remarkable is that Spain has a progressive government. That is why it’s no coincidence that Milei came here or that Trump criticizes Spain. It would be good if, amid so much darkness, Spain remained a beacon of hope and progress. Because not only are we proving that there is an alternative path, but that it works, and far better than what these far-right leaders offer.
Q. Why is the far right growing so much and the left is so weak worldwide?
A. I predict that in Spain we will not only win, but we will govern with a much broader majority. As for the rest of the world, there probably isn’t a single answer, but I’ll give you one I consider fundamental: the algorithm. Its design favors polarization, spreads messages of hate and helps the far right. It’s a shame that the PP, which aspires to govern Spain, uses impersonation through artificial intelligence. It’s regrettable. Deepfakes are techniques used by child abusers. A party that aspires to govern should respect people and propose constructive debate, not destructive tactics.
Q. Do you pledge that the PSOE will not use artificial intelligence during the campaign?
A. We certainly will not use deepfakes, and much less in the way the PP is doing, which I find absolutely deplorable.
Q. But is it only the algorithm or is there something else? There are youth mobilizations across Europe. Has the system failed them?
A. Many young people are mobilizing around causes of absolute social justice. Here in Madrid they are protesting in defense of public education. Hundreds of thousands have protested against the genocide in Gaza. And over housing. It is true that far-right messages — hate, xenophobia, anti-feminism — are resonating with a segment of the electorate. But it is not the majority. And where it spreads, it’s due to the algorithm. That leads to a prior question: haven’t Western democracies been naive in believing those who told us that technology is neutral? History has shown otherwise. And the oligarchs understand that well.
Q. You are one of the very few world leaders who deliver a pro-immigration discourse. But even some progressive voters harbor doubts. Does that cost you votes or win you votes?
A. It’s not about losing or gaining votes but about education. This is a country that was once a nation of emigrants. For example, during the Franco dictatorship, my grandfather had to live for 40 years in Germany to feed his children. That is our recent Spanish history. Now we are facing a demographic winter. The dilemma is whether we want to be an open, prosperous society or a closed, decaying one without the workforce to sustain the current welfare state. Immigration must, of course, be orderly and lawful; migrants must integrate and accept the constitutional values of an open society like Spain’s, where equality between men and women is a central pillar. In the process we completed, most migrants are Latin American, and by the way, many are Argentines who left as a consequence of Milei’s cuts...
Q. Speaking of migrants, during the migrant crisis in Ceuta there were many warnings that it could be serious. What was done incorrectly?
A. There were warnings, but not of that magnitude. No service — no intelligence agency nor any of the State Security forces — saw the scale of what would happen on July 30 and 31. That leads to another reflection: states must anticipate movements on social media, where hoaxes spread; for example, a tendentious reading of a Supreme Court ruling on expulsions. Tragically, 141 people died, many of them children. But had we responded more aggressively at the border, we would be speaking of a much greater calamity.
Q. Some consider the government did not measure up. There was criticism because you went on holiday. Would you do it again?
A. I was in Ceuta the next day. I have been constantly attentive to Ceuta; I am the incumbent prime minister who has visited Ceuta and Melilla most often. This government has put the most resources in, before and after the crisis. We have always been clear in our dealings with Morocco that [the exclave cities of] Ceuta and Melilla are, of course, part of Spain and also part of the European border.
Q. And Morocco? It seems a fundamental factor in this crisis. Is it believable that it did not intervene either by action or omission?
A. I ask you: what has Morocco gained from this crisis?
Q. It has weakened you...
A. But this is a government that has always worked to have the best relations with a strategic partner.
Q. And it exposed the weakness of the border.
A. What was shown is the need to strengthen migration cooperation between Morocco and Spain. And if you analyze the data you will see that irregular migrant arrivals have fallen by 70%. Therefore, I insist, there have been disagreements with Morocco over Ceuta and Melilla, but we want the best relationship precisely so many of the migrants who arrived can return, and also for good neighborliness.
Q. According to our survey, 90% of Spaniards believe Morocco was behind the Ceuta crisis. In addition, an EL PAÍS investigation revealed there was a very serious incident between vessels of the two navies.
A. You are the one who is calling it very serious.
Q. Then tell us how that conflict unfolded, in detail. In any case, that incident adds weight to the idea that Morocco did something. How will you convince citizens it was not so?
A. I respect opinions, but as prime minister I cannot open a diplomatic escalation with a neighboring country based solely on conjecture. Very likely, if you ask that 90% of Spaniards, they will tell you they want constructive relations with Morocco.
Q. If after November 29 the PSOE ends up in the opposition, what will you do?
A. That’s like asking an athlete about to start a race what they will do if they don’t meet their goal. As I said, I am convinced Spain will opt for four more years of progress.
Q. You started the pre-campaign with your wife present and a kiss. Are we headed toward elections focused on personal and family attacks?
A. Not on our part. I know Feijóo’s and [Vox leader Santiago] Abascal’s campaigns. What they want is to remove Sánchez from power. The insults and lies aimed at us are because we are implementing a very different model from what the far-right international defends. We are proving that you can grow the economy and raise the minimum wage, invest in renewable energy, integrate migrants and defend real equality between men and women. A robust welfare state binds societies together and protects people’s rights; it does not commodify them.
Q. Why is anti-Sánchez sentiment so strong? Do you bear any responsibility for the rejection you provoke?
A. In a democracy some people support you and others do not. Fortunately, this progressive government has significant backing. Wide swaths of the population share our progressive agenda and social advances. But we have governed for everyone. They insult my mother, but I also remember their mothers when I raise their pensions. Extending parental leave or raising the minimum wage also benefits PP, Vox, and other voters.
Q. How does it affect you as a candidate that your brother has been convicted [of administrative misconduct] and your wife is under investigation [for alleged influence trafficking]?
A. They are David Sánchez and Begoña Gómez. They are being tried for being the brother and the wife of the prime minister. In these two cases the red lines of a democracy have been crossed. First, because they are innocent. Second, because they are people of integrity. And third, because in politics, attacks like those Begoña and David are enduring from far-right associations and media outlets should not be launched.
Q. How damaging has it been to have two former organization secretaries of the PSOE in prison? What explanation will you give voters?
A. I have asked for forgiveness, I have acted firmly and I have cooperated with the justice system.
Q. Some think the PSOE has been slow to react in certain matters. There is the case of Leire Díez and her alleged pressure on judges and prosecutors on behalf of the PSOE. Why don’t you file a lawsuit against Leire Díez?
A. The instant this case came to light she was asked to hand in her party membership card. And that happened within days.
Q. But you never filed a complaint. Why not?
A. Well, those are the PSOE’s legal strategies. But the PSOE is absolutely unrelated to these videos, to this behavior, and to what Leire Díez allegedly did in this case.
Q. Wouldn’t filing a complaint be the way to show complete dissociation?
A. I insist: those are legal strategies. Politically, we have acted decisively. I say that as secretary general of the PSOE.
Q. In the 2023 elections, [former Socialist prime minister José Luis Rodríguez] Zapatero played an important role. He is now under investigation [for allegedly leading an influence-peddling and money-laundering network]. Do you still have confidence in him? Will he play any role in the campaign?
A. I respect his presumption of innocence and I defend José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero’s legacy, particularly in matters concerning women’s rights and freedoms. But we will have to speak with José Luis to see if he wants to participate. He is certainly an asset for the PSOE.
Q. Have you received valuable gifts as president? What have you done with them?
A. When I was given the pistol that the president of Turkey gifted to NATO leaders, I learned that at La Moncloa [the palace that is the seat of government] there is a physical space where former prime ministers have left many items.
Q. Why hasn’t Zapatero left his gifts there? Would you like to use this interview to tell Zapatero to give up his jewels?
A. I’m not going to tell José Luis what he has to do. I know he is fully aware of what he should do.
Q. Return them?
A. He is very aware of what he should do...
Q. Will you pardon the former chief prosecutor of Spain [Álvaro García Ortiz, found guilty of leaking confidential information] before the elections?
A. The same legal framework that led to his conviction is also the one that empowers the executive to grant pardons. Pardons are an integral part of our democracy. The Popular Party, when it governed, pardoned more than 7,000 people. At this moment the Ministry of Justice has the process open. And, of course, you know the Spanish government’s position. We and a large part of Spanish society and parliamentary forces consider it an unjust sentence and, therefore, when the procedure is complete we will decide.
Q. Regarding the so-called Grandchildren Law: what do you think of the Supreme Court’s decision to suspend voting rights for 163,000 people?
A. We will comply with it, but we do not share it. This has a lot to do with the lies and hoaxes spread by the far-right international. They sow doubts about mail voting, about the Law of Democratic Memory... In the end the question we have to ask is: will the grandchildren of the Franco regime be able to vote while the grandchildren of the Republican exile will not?
Q. There is an additional instruction that came after the law and broadened the criteria for acquiring Spanish citizenship. Would it not have been better to tweak the law rather than do it this way?
A. In any case, that is for Parliament to decide. Far-right associations, as well as the PP and Vox, previously saw no problem with it, but now do. It has a lot to do with their fear of losing the election, and with their membership in the far-right international, where they adopt and assume all these kinds of lies simply to sow doubt about the democratic process and, of course, about the democratic legitimacy of the next administration. In short, I think they are putting the bandage on before the wound.
Q. You have been prime minister for eight years. What has been your biggest mistake?
A. Ábalos’s corruption. For the double error of not having seen it and, of course, the fact that it happened.
Q. How would you like to be remembered as prime minister?
A. I’ll leave that to you or to the historians.
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