In October, Sports Illustrated boxing writer Chris Mannix sat down with six members of the cast of The Greatest: Jaalen Best (who stars as Cassius Clay), Omari Hardwick (Clay’s father, Cassius Sr.), Dana Gourrier (Clay’s mother, Odessa), Kai Parham (Clay’s younger brother, Rudy), Giovanni Ribisi (Clay’s longtime trainer Angelo Dundee) and Amin Joseph (Sonny Liston). In a revealing roundtable discussion, they talked about how they prepared for their roles—including learning to box—and came to inhabit their characters, which in Joseph’s case meant literally carrying Liston’s burden with him everywhere he went in the form of a 65-pound kettlebell.
CHRIS MANNIX: Jaalen, I want to start with you. I was looking at your early career and you played “Hot Guy” in your very first IMDB listing ...
JAALEN BEST: I am pretty good-looking. [Laughter.]
CHRIS MANNIX: ... to playing arguably the most iconic sports figure ever. I listen to you and I hear Muhammad Ali in your voice. Is that intentional or is this just who you are?
JAALEN BEST: I kind of walked in these shoes for the past three years, maybe four years. So it’s going to naturally come in. But again, I’m from Alexandria, Va. I grew up in North Carolina. He’s from Kentucky, so we kind of share a little Southern twang. But yeah, this is me just being me.
GIOVANNI RIBISI: So for the last five years, you’ve been Muhammad Ali more than you’ve been Jaalen Best.
JAALEN BEST: And it’s been pretty fun. It is so funny because I think being 28, I haven’t really discovered much of who Jaalen is. So to play someone like Muhammad Ali, it’s kind of funny because I think after this role, I would have to really do a deep dive and try to figure out who I am.
CHRIS MANNIX: Dana, you and Kai played two figures in Clay’s life that really have never been explored to this extent. You’re the mother, the matriarch, the one that really held the family together throughout all the trials and tribulations. What was it that drew you to this character?
DANA GOURRIER: Don’t we all find though that our moms are like the glue that keeps our families together?
JAALEN BEST: Absolutely.
DANA GOURRIER: For better or worse, they are the best parts of all of us. I think what drew me to the work though is the script. I fell in love with Odessa; she’s affectionately known as Bird, but to me she’s Odessa. She was Odessa before she was anyone’s mother, anyone’s wife. She was her own person of flesh and blood and thoughts and dreams and hopes. And I think what drew me to her most is that I understood her. I feel like she’s probably most of her life been overlooked or in the shadow of these titan people, these titan men around her. And I definitely identify with that as a woman myself.
And also I was really drawn to her femininity. I find I can be tough sometimes as myself. I say how I feel, I’m open, I’m honest, wear my feelings on my shoulder. But Odessa, she kept things right under the surface and I have such a tremendous respect. I find that triumphant to be able to keep that much rage and love and worry and anxiety and stress right there beneath the surface at all times. I think it takes a real hero to do that.
CHRIS MANNIX: So you were, I believe, a psychology major in college for a minute. What would be your psychological assessment of the Clay family?
DANA GOURRIER: Oh my goodness. My psychological assessment. You want to know the truth? I think they were a beautiful Black family trying to survive and get through the day like every other beautiful Black family during that time.
I would say they lived in a constant state of a central nervous system that was always on alert because at any moment, anything could happen because of the signs of the times. It’s the era where they were and what they were doing. My mother distinctly remembers drinking from a colored fountain. My father remembers having to sit in the back of the bus. These were not times where it was easy to just walk around and be free in the world. And so I think psychologically that tends to play on you and not only that, but generationally. We’re still trying to bridge the gap, but also undo the madness. If anything, I would say they were just a happy family that was trying to make it through the day. That’s my psychological assessment. I’ll leave the bill in the mail for you.
CHRIS MANNIX: Kai, this is the most fleshed-out version of Rudy Clay that’s ever been portrayed. What did you know about him coming into this role, and how did you prepare for it?
KAI PARHAM: I was blessed to be able to get my hands on the autobiography that he wrote about his life being in the shadows of his brother. And that gave me almost a road map for how he would handle situations, how he would handle people, how he would handle himself in a multitude of different ways. And so for me going in, after the first few chapters that I read, I learned that this is somebody who is a very, very smart person, but someone who’s very aware. So he sees the things that’s going on with his mother. He writes about the things going on with his father. He writes about the things going on with his brother. And then in the midst of that, he writes about the things going on with himself. So having that was almost like a cheat code and was very, very beneficial to me early in the process.
CHRIS MANNIX: In some ways, Rudy is the typical younger brother to an older brother—looks up to his brother, hero worship, the things that you conventionally see. But it also seems like he is the rock, the one constant that’s there for Cassius throughout his young life. How would you describe the dynamic between the two?
KAI PARHAM: I mean, exactly that. I think there’s moments in the show and within their lives as well where Rudy acts almost as if he’s his brother’s Jiminy Cricket. Cassius does nothing without running it by his brother. He does nothing without running this feeling through his brother. They act as if mirrors are between the two of them. And so Rudy allows [Cassius] to be that person in any situation, the brother that he is, the younger brother. He’s not always the champion. He’s not always the son. He gets to be himself and I think Rudy allows him to be his rawest self. So I think that’s honestly the most important thing that they have between them.
CHRIS MANNIX: Jaalen, would you agree with that assessment?
JAALEN BEST: Yeah, absolutely. To be around someone like Muhammad Ali, you almost have to be just like him to walk in his shoes and experience life the way he experienced life. And I think to my and Kai’s relationship in filming and stuff, we are just alike. We’re the same person essentially going through the same experiences and experiencing the highs together, the lows together, having each other’s back, being strong in faith together.
CHRIS MANNIX: Omari, what drew you to the role of playing Cassius Sr.?
OMARI HARDWICK: The pain, quite frankly. The pain that he carried, it was very familiar, not only to me. Growing up with family members, grandparents included, that you know endured a level of pain and discomfort that unfortunately, yet often fortunately because of our skin color, we just embrace it.
Life was always lifeing for Cash Sr. It was always lifeing. Was that necessarily a good thing at all times? Absolutely not. But what we know about the guy is that he was unafraid to be larger than life, and he was equally misunderstood in terms of his urgency to make the boys that he and Odessa made larger than life. The urgency is very operative to me.
CHRIS MANNIX: One of the things I love about this series is that there’s a lot of stories within the story—and the father-son dynamic is a story within the story. It’s a very complicated relationship between Cassius Sr. and Junior.
OMARI HARDWICK: All of us got daddy issues. Even if the reality is that our dads were good and our dads were formidably present and our dads believed in us and our dads actually gave us permission to be big and great, they were just doing the best they could at figuring out life.
CHRIS MANNIX: Giovanni, is this your first sports role?
GIOVANNI RIBISI: Yeah.
CHRIS MANNIX: So what was it about playing Angelo Dundee that appealed to you?
GIOVANNI RIBISI: I was a child actor and in my formative years of really growing up on a set, there wasn’t a lot of sports in my life. The attraction here was really what was on the page first and working with somebody like [showrunner] Ben Watkins. And then obviously the subject matter, the idea that once you read this, it’s a show about greatness. And there was just something that was magnetic about that.
CHRIS MANNIX: So Amin, I’ve seen and read a lot about Sonny Liston, who is historically played as a villain in most of the roles that he’s cast in. I think for six and a half episodes, I was rooting for Sonny Liston. I was hoping that you’d just revise history and he would beat Ali in that first fight. You’re a boxing guy. What did you know about Liston?
AMIN JOSEPH: I knew about Liston what I feel like everyone knew. It’s one-dimensional, two-dimensional at best. Villain, pariah, Black, ugly, mob. And what’s funny is there’s a quote from Notorious B.I.G. where in one of his songs, he’s like, “Black and ugly as ever, however.” And I feel like the however. But Sonny Liston is a son. He’s a father. He’s a lover. He’s someone that’s jovial and a jokester. And that’s what I was able to learn about Sonny that I didn’t know coming into it. Even as a boxing fan, you know the record, 50–4, you don’t know that this man had a total different life than what the media portrayed.
CHRIS MANNIX: Were you aware of the side of him coming into the project and how much did you learn along the way?
AMIN JOSEPH: I learned it along the way, but it first started with the words that were on the page. My audition was some beautiful words by Ben Watkins. It was a court scene. And in this scene, there was so much humanity. The words on this page told me the direction that this project would go and the care that they would have for Sonny Liston.
CHRIS MANNIX: How did you prepare to play Sonny Liston?
AMIN JOSEPH: It was totally different than what I assumed. I thought playing Sonny Liston would be me digging into the dark recesses of my mind and upbringing and imagination. And instead, I had a partner, Erica Tazel, who played Geraldine Liston. I had Gio. That’s the great thing about being an actor is that I get to deal with these beautiful people when they’re not in character. And they supported me.
I was invited to the group functions and things so that Sonny didn’t feel so much like a pariah. But we shot up in Toronto, and I had a long time of self-reflection being away from the cast and being isolated. The isolation that Sonny Liston dealt with of being on a plantation, the isolation of being locked up and learning boxing, locked up.
CHRIS MANNIX: I know Amin came into this project with a boxing background. He boxed growing up. Jaalen, Kai, what was your boxing experience, and how did you become the kind of boxers that look like great on TV?
KAI PARHAM: When I got the role, I had about three months to figure it out. So they sent me to Canada to prep. And at first I was like, O.K., they’ll have me hit the bag. I’ll do some jump roping and stuff. And then they said, “Oh no, no, no, you’re going to spar Jaalen.” And so I was like, O.K. “And then when Jaalen’s done, you’re going to spar Amin.”
So here I am sparring someone playing Sonny Liston and someone playing Muhammad Ali. I’m just trying to figure it out as I’m going. And so that was a speed ramp to figuring it out. You know what I mean? Because there’s only so many times he is going to shuffle and punch me. There’s so many times I’m going to get a heavy one from him. So I had to figure it out.
AMIN JOSEPH: He was a quick study. But you know what? It’s the ego. It’s the vanity. He started coming in earlier than everyone. He started working that bag. Yeah, he did. I think he got really nasty on that rope. He fell in love with it and he got the process. He knew what he wanted to look like. He knew the challenge.
I also want to give a little bit to my brother right here, Jaalen. [boxing coach] Rob Salley told me, “I’m sending you up there to train with a Ferrari. I built a Ferrari. I built it from the ground up.” And O.K., yeah, all right. I’ll go up there and see the kid. This young man to me is by far the best boxer we’ve seen on screen. People mimic how Ali fights all the time, but to really get it down, you can’t mimic it.
DANA GOURRIER: You’ve got to embody it.
JAALEN BEST: But I mean, I would like to say this because for me to even rise to that occasion and give my best, I had to see people doing it, seeing people do it for themselves and for their characters. Amin would never tell you, but this man not only [dealt] with the isolation, he would carry a 60-, 80-pound kettlebell around set every single day. And we just looked at this man like, What? But he wanted to feel the weight of what Sonny Liston carried.
CHRIS MANNIX: How did you become the Ferrari though? Are you doing two a days for two years? What, three years.
JAALEN BEST: Again, you’re talking about Muhammad Ali and what he gave to be Muhammad Ali. The best way I could make that come to life on-screen was to show up every day in this time frame that I had to become him. So you talk about six, seven days a week. You talk about waking up every single day and having to run five miles. And you talk about cutting 35 to almost 40 pounds to look like an 18-year-old kid. I’m sitting at 200 pounds and I got to play 165 on screen.
OMARI HARDWICK: When they first came in, that beautiful handsome boy was chubby.
CHRIS MANNIX: Can you tell me the kettlebell backstory?
OMARI HARDWICK: Sixty-five-pound kettlebell.
AMIN JOSEPH: It’s just, I believe there’s a price to pay for everything you want. And that was just the physical price for Sonny. You’re not going to do your little workout, your little two a days and some boxing training like an actor and show up and deserve Sonny Liston. You need to pay your pound of flesh. So what was really difficult was to run after this Ferrari for eight rounds and then pick that thing up and get back to base camp. And sometimes I wanted to put that bitch down.
OMARI HARDWICK: Chris, he was carrying it everywhere.
AMIN JOSEPH: It was my appendage.
OMARI HARDWICK: We go to lunch. He’s carrying the kettlebell.
AMIN JOSEPH: It’s my price.
OMARI HARDWICK: Gio had a watch. He had a kettlebell.
GIOVANNI RIBISI: And believe me, for me, the watch felt like the kettlebell.
CHRIS MANNIX: Kai, at the heart of the story obviously is religion and Clay’s growth with Islam, with the Nation of Islam. I didn’t know before watching this that it was Rudy who had steered him in that direction, brought him into the Nation of Islam. Tell me about the religious dynamic between you two.
KAI PARHAM: Well, I think when dealing with religion, you want to make sure that you pay your respects regardless of what it is that you believe. We got the chance to do some studying prior to shooting some of the scenes that dealt with the religious part of it.
And what’s shown on-screen was similar to our experience off camera. We’re cross-referencing things we may know. We’re cross-referencing rules, restrictions, things like that, how to handle this religion. And so when you see it on screen, it’s really raw and real because it’s really raw and real.
CHRIS MANNIX: And Dana, Odessa can handle pretty much everything. It was Ali’s veering away to Islam that seemed to be part of what almost broke her. She wanted him to stay in the faith that has been part of her family for so long. How much of a conflict was that for her throughout this process?
DANA GOURRIER: Well, it’s her backbone, right? So her faith is her whole identity in many ways. It’s what’s gotten her through the day. It’s what keeps them safe at night as they walk around. It’s the very fabric of who she is. And so for that to be changed, I think it felt like a rug being pulled from under her. I think it felt like a physical blow, actually. And that’s to say nothing of what it did to her and Cash. What does this mean? How did we raise them? Did we misstep? Did we make a mistake? I think all of those things played into her psyche and was just really weighing on her spirit.
But there are beautiful moments later where you see her sort of come back home to herself, to them as well, in the sense that there’s nothing on earth that would separate her love from them. Nothing.
CHRIS MANNIX: Jaalen, this story all takes place in the early ’60s. The backdrop is the Civil Rights Movement. Cassius Clay wins the gold medal in 1960 and it felt like in that first episode he thought that was going to change a lot, that was going to make things different. And he realizes very quickly that’s not the case. I think there’s the great scene where he walks into the restaurant that has his burger on the menu and he can’t sit at the table to eat it. What did you learn about how that plays a role in his story?
JAALEN BEST: Yeah, I think my favorite part in that first episode is, [he thinks] this gold medal is like a golden key that can unlock anything. And then you get to a place of realizing that the materials, the money, the success, the fame, it only gets you so far before you realize the real problems that you face that lie ahead of you.
CHRIS MANNIX: There is, as we’ve talked about, a real authenticity in the boxing. The action is so excellently choreographed. It’s true boxing. So I want to ask this question. If we all walk down to Wildcard Gym after this and we get Jaalen, Kai and Amin in a round-robin tournament in the ring, who is coming out with their hand raised?
AMIN JOSEPH: I pulled every punch. I pulled every punch. I pulled every punch. The job was to make the kid look good. Keep his face pretty.
CHRIS MANNIX: When you’re acting in these scenes, and we’ve heard this in shows and films before, sometimes a punch gets through. Any shots get through for you guys?
KAI PARHAM: Me and Jaalen got in trouble for our scene. We were hitting each other for real, but we got comfortable with each other so we’re not really pulling punches, we’re just hitting each other. And [stunt coordinator] Clayton [Barber] who helped us with a lot of the choreography stopped the set and was like, “Have you two lost your mind? What’s going on up there?”
We’re like, “All right man, sorry, we won’t do it again.” And we’re right back to each other. But it’s just, I think the comfortability of that allowed that.
JAALEN BEST: Growing up in the household, if you have siblings, you fight. You don’t pull back. So in that moment it was us trying to have a brotherly tension, real brotherly tension and get some punches through. And that’s usually when you come together and be even closer. You know what I mean? So I think we really wanted to take the lens and experience that.
CHRIS MANNIX: The season wraps in 1964. There is a lot of ground left to cover, and we’re not yet done with Sonny Liston in Ali’s life at this point. There’s still one more fight. Amin, if you could explore something new in the series, what would it be?
AMIN JOSEPH: I definitely would love to examine the mystery of Liston’s death. I think that’s huge ... [And] I can’t wait to see this young actor portray the full-fledged man that we all were graced with
Muhammad Ali. I can’t wait.
CHRIS MANNIX: Jaalen, I’ll give you the last word on it. What do you think is the most fertile territory in Ali’s life
to explore?
JAALEN BEST: I think the element that we just portrayed was super fun. I was able to be a kid. I was able to have so much fun, enjoy and smile and laugh and all those great things. But I think I’m very excited to be able to truly understand the mind of Muhammad Ali and why we know him to be who he is today. That’s what I’m excited to experience.
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